Gosh golly gee, what's that all about?
Marketing and Ministering to Homosexuals 8/25/08
Wow! Sounds practically brand new to me. Let's see what the synopsis of the program says:
Why does contemporary America hold gays and lesbians in such high regard? How did that happen? How should the Church respond? Former homosexual Alan Chambers tells you, on Truths That Transform, with Dr. D. James Kennedy.I saw this advertised on the Exodus Web site, under the “What’s New” section. So of course I had to check it out.
Interview with Alan Chambers
An interview with Alan Chambers and Dr. D. James Kennedy? Obviously it can‘t be that new, because as far as I’m aware, Dr. D. James Kennedy is quite dead.
I couldn’t find a date for the original broadcast, but I know the Exodus book “God’s Grace and the
And by all means, please feel free to copy, paste, and excoriate - at will.
(Recorded voice over intro):Commentary will have to wait, and believe me, I have some - but that was exhausting.
Alan Chambers: I didn’t leave homosexuality to become heterosexual, I left homosexuality because that’s what my relationship with Christ commanded me to do. So the opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, it’s holiness.
~~~~Announcer: Proclaiming truth that transformed the world, this is, Truths That Transform. Featuring Dr. D. James Kennedy, founder of Coral Ridge Ministries. Stay tuned to discover how you can apply Biblical principles, and transform your world for Jesus Christ.
Homosexuality has gone from ‘unmentionable sin’ to ‘celebrated status,’ in less than one generation. And some wonder how that happened. Today’s guest says, in large part it was due to savvy marketing and media help, but also, because the Church hasn’t been equipped to minister to those struggling with same-sex attraction.
Dr. James Kennedy’s guest is the President of Exodus International, Alan Chambers.
Alan himself participated in homosexuality for a number of years, but now, he is one the hundreds of thousands who can say they’ve left homosexuality behind, thanks to a new love in their life - named Jesus.
In addition to his position with Exodus International, Alan Chambers is editor of the book: “God’s Grace and the
monsterHomosexual Next Door - reaching the heart of gay men and women in your world.” ~~~~
Dr. James Kennedy: Alan Chambers, it’s a privilege to welcome you to back to Truths That Transform.
Alan Chambers: Thanks for having me again Dr. Kennedy.
Dr. James Kennedy: Good. You have lived in the homosexual lifestyle for a number of years. Tell us briefly how you got involved in it, and how you finally were enabled to walk away from it.
Alan Chambers: Dr. Kennedy, I grew up in the church, first of all, and for years and years and years I struggled silently with a secret, that I had same sex attractions. And as a young person sitting in church, I never heard anybody give a word of hope about that condition. I never heard a pastor say anything loving or graceful towards people who were struggling, and so, when I was old enough to make the choice, I decided - I’ve never heard anything positive here, I’m going to see what out there for me to get involved in.
And honestly, I ran into the open arms of the gay community, that was more than willing to love unconditionally. And ironically, what made the biggest difference in my life was, not only did I find that gay life was absolutely unfulfilling and I was never going to find what I was looking for there, I found church that reached out to me - in a way that I’d never been reached out to before. And it was through the ministry of Discovery Church in Orlando Florida that I found, not only did God love me exactly the way I was, but He loved me too much to leave me that way.
Dr. James Kennedy: You mention you “ran in the arms” of the homosexual element of our society. Exactly what did you mean by ‘running into the arms,’ I don’t think you’re talking about a physical experience that took place on the sidewalk somewhere?
Alan Chambers: No, the gay community is probably the most sophisticated, most well equipped group of people that are organized and ready and waiting for people to find them. You know, they’re out there sharing that they’re a group of people who are willing for anyone to be a part of their community, and for me, as a kid who was struggling with feelings I didn’t ask for, and I didn’t understand, and was really disillusioned by the fact that I believed the church didn’t have an answer for me - that group of people, really opened their arms to me. They welcomed me, they didn’t want to change anything about me, in fact they told me the thing that I’d felt worst about my entire life, was the best thing about me. And it was really a counterfeit type of community that worked for me for a long time.
Dr. James Kennedy: How long were you involved with that
Alan Chambers: I was involved for several years. At the same time I was involved in the gay community, the Scripture comes to mind; “If we train up a child in the way that they should go, when they are old, they won’t depart from it.” And at the same time I was getting involved in the gay community, and becoming entrenched in that way of life, I couldn’t get away from the truth. I couldn’t get away from the fact that I knew what Scripture said, and I knew what I was taught, and I knew what I believed about my relationship with Jesus Christ. And while I tried desperately to reconcile my homosexuality with my Christianity, I absolutely couldn’t.
And it was through, really, my relationship with Christ, and the relationship with a local church that I found freedom.
Dr. James Kennedy: In the eyes of many, homosexuals have transformed themselves from a deviant fringe element of society, into an alternative lifestyle. How did they do that, and what role did the media play?
Alan Chambers: It’s been an amazing marketing campaign of the course of probably the last four decades, in fact, I would say that it’s the most successful marketing campaign in the history of our world - Where we’ve taken a group of people who were once outcasts in society, who were once really the fringe of society, and thrust them into the mainstream, in a way that not only recognizes them as a part of our culture, but puts them up on a pedestal of being the epitome of what is wonderful about our culture.
In today’s society, we really hold the gay community to a very esteem, and I believe that the media has played the most critical role in that regard. Certainly they have worked with gay organizations and gay individuals, but they have promoted homosexuality to be something that our society absolutely can’t and shouldn’t do without.
It’s amazing, in fact we, all we have to do is look at every single newscast that’s on our television today, that’s on our radio today, in the media today, and hear that promotion in ways that we would have never imagined it - 20,30 years ago.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well that’s certainly true, we certainly would not have imagined it as such, and today I have heard that almost ever sitcom program on television today has some homosexuals playing their part as homosexuals, in that particular play on TV. I don’t know if that’s accurate or not, but I wouldn’t be surprised, because you certainly do see them over and over again.
Alan Chambers: Absolutely. You know, there are numerous sitcoms with gay characters on them, gay characters who are the lead characters in those programs. We see it in Disney movies, we see it in cartoons, now we’re seeing it in comic books, where there are gay heroines, and heros who are the main stories of these comic books - and it’s an absolute marketing to children, to help children come to the place where they see homosexuality as absolutely normal. And they grow up with a different worldview than you and I did.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well what’s this Nation Lesbian and Gay Journalist Association -- to quote the whole name -- what do they say about balance when reporting stories of/on homosexuality?
Alan Chambers: The NLGJA is an organization that was founded in 1990 and they have absolutely inundated, and infiltrated our media. And every major news organization, every network, every cable network, is a part of this organization and this association.
And with the issue of balance, one of the things that they said is; ‘balance isn’t really necessary when reporting on the issue of homosexuality.’ They liken it to the race issue. For a story to be “balanced” on the race issue, they say, ‘we don’t have to got to the Ku Klux Klan for a balanced story, therefore, when we’re reporting on things related to the gay and lesbian lifestyle, we shouldn’t have to go to the Church, or Exodus, or Focus on the Family, or any other organization that’s working on the other side to find balance in the story. Balance is that homosexuality is a part of our culture, it’s a wonderful part of our culture, and we shouldn’t go to the other side to listen to those ‘bigoted, cruel, and homophobic people who may be preaching a different message.’
Dr. James Kennedy: Probably the most influential book on the subject, entitled “After the Ball,” transformed the homosexual agenda into the so-called “gay rights” movement. How did they do that?
[Emproph: I own the book. It’s glorified common sense.]
Alan Chambers: It’s interesting. “After the Ball” was an amazing book that was written, and I believe that it most written for the activists, most written for those who were going to carry the agenda further. And while I think that happened, I honestly believe that it had more of a backfiring effect on the gay community, in that, I think it galvanized the Christian community more than it did the gay community. The Christian community and Conservatives really read this book, and looked at this book and said, this is proof that there is an agenda, there is something that is moving forward at a quick rate, to normalize and legitimize homosexuality.
And so I see “After the Ball” as really, one of the greatest gifts to the Christian community, as we have learned more about the pro-gay movement, and how, really, to answer it in respectful loving and truthful tone.
Dr. James Kennedy: The question you often hear is, are homosexuals quote born that way? Scientific research says no, but that’s not what the authors of “After the Ball” tell homosexuals to say, is it?
Alan Chambers: No, “After the Ball” does promote the idea that people are born gay, that there’s nothing they can do about it, that there’s a genetic predisposition, or genetic code, that they must follow, and the truth is, from a Biblical perspective, we’re all born fallen, we’re all born genetically, physically, emotionally, and spiritually fallen creatures.
And whether there is a gay gene which, there’s absolutely no scientific proof that there is, whether or not there’s a gay gene or not, the truth is, that we’re all in need of a savior. And it doesn’t matter how we’re born, what matters is that we’re ‘born again.’ And people like me, the hundreds of thousands of men an women who have overcome homosexuality successfully are living proof that whether or not someone is predispositioned to struggle with homosexuality or not, that we can overcome our genetics. Genetics weren’t meant to be tyrannical, they weren’t mean to control our lives.
And the truth is, homosexuals can change, and we’re living proof, that’s the good news.
Dr. James Kennedy: Of course, homosexuals not only say that they are ‘born that way,’ but they also deny your final comment just now, but very strongly asserting that they not only are born that way, but they cannot change. I’m sure in your lifetime you’ve heard that many times. What would you say to someone like that, that it’s not possible to change?
Alan Chambers: Well, the truth is that no one can tell me that change isn’t possible, because I’ve experienced it. I used to be gay, and today, I’m not.
And not only have I experienced this, but I know thousands of men and women who have also experienced it. Lasting change, that has lasted 40,50,60 years, and it’s something that is possible for those who submit their sexuality and their desires and lives to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.
Dr. James Kennedy: Alright, what is the ultimate goal of the homosexual political movement?
Alan Chambers: I think the ultimate goal of the homosexual political movement is they want to win. And winning to them is completely changing the way our culture thinks about the issue of homosexuality. That it’s not just something that is out there, but it’s something that a wonderful part of our culture, it’s a wonderful thing for people to be involved in, it’s equal to any other type of sexuality that’s out there, it’s equal to heterosexuality, it should be as embraced and endorsed and encouraged - on every level of society, as is heterosexuality.
And so, what I see is that a group of people got together, 30-40 years ago, to bring about this validation, for themselves, and they’re really changing our culture, from a culture that believes one thing, to a culture that believes something that’s absolutely contrary to truth. Both Biblical truth, physical truth, anthropological truth, psychological truth. It’s something that, again, it’s that marketing campaign that’s gone on over the last 40 years that has absolutely been successful in our society.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well let’s shift gears for a moment now and focus on the solution to this problem. How should Christians respond to the marketing of homosexuality? Should we be in ‘attack mode,’ or is there a better way?
Alan Chambers: I think for years, that Christians have been in ‘attack mode.’ We’ve been in a mode of presenting the truth of Scripture, at times without presenting the grace of Scripture. And we’ve presented the truth about-about the Bible, about what it says about homosexuality, about its Biblical mandate against homosexual sin. But I believe that we’ve left out a component that’s essential in this, it says in the Gospel of John, that Jesus was 100% grace, and 100% truth. And while I believe it’s absolutely essential for us to put our hand up to a society that’s moving forward in ways that are contrary to Biblical truth, we have to put our hand out and offer help and hope to a group of people who are dying and going to hell, for lack of information, for lack of Biblical truth.
I believe that, sure, we should fight against what we believe is the gay agenda, but we’ve got to be after hearts -- first and foremost -- and if we have to sacrifice one thing for another, I think we need to make sure that we are looking at people’s hearts, and not just looking at people as an issue.
Dr. James Kennedy: Alright, let’s take a look at some myths about homosexuality that have obtained a great deal of popularity. Number one: Homosexuality is the worst of all sins.
Alan Chambers: I don’t know if I hear this specifically often, but I definitely get the impression that people believe that homosexuality is the worst sin that they’ve ever encountered. And the truth is that the ground was leveled at the foot of the cross.
If there had never been the sin of homosexuality, or a homosexual person that walked the face of the Earth, Jesus would have still had to come and hang on that cross for our sins, and the truth is that in order to reach people, we’ve got to get to the place where we see our sins -- whatever it is that we struggle with -- just as ugly as the next sin.
Dr. James Kennedy: Right. How ‘bout this one, homosexuality is a choice?
Alan Chambers: I think there’s truth in that, but the greatness is that people initially choose to feel gay, and for me, and millions of people who are out there who have found that they struggle with homosexuality, no one chooses to feel that way. No one chooses to wake up in the morning -- and out of life’s great big buffet -- to feel gay.
But I will say, where it becomes a choice is when we’re old enough to make wise choices about how we feel, our behaviors. I did choose to behave homosexually, I did choose to go into a gay lifestyle, and to do things that today I regret. Those things for me were a choice. Ultimately, the greatest choice I made was to submit my life to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and to leave homosexuality behind.
Dr. James Kennedy: How about, 10% of the population is gay?
Alan Chambers: Gay activists will tell you that for years that myth was promoted because it was a nice round number to point to. And it was part of that successful marketing campaign that we as the American public, and really - the world public has undergone.
The truth is that 10% of the population isn’t gay, that is widely overstated. About 1-3%, somewhere in there, is where we would find people who struggle with homosexuality, and people who are gay identified, would fall. It’s not just that 3% of the population is actively pursuing a gay lifestyle. But I would say 1-3% of people who are affected in some way personally with the issue.
Dr. James Kennedy: I think that 10% figure really comes from Kinsey, and from his report.
Alan Chambers: It does come from Kinsey, which we know was a flawed study from the beginning. His sample was a group of prisoners and something was very biased and he himself was a sex addict. And his sample base was not only flawed, but, he had a real desire to influence how the study came out, to really bring about the change and how we think about the issue of homosexuality in America.
Dr. James Kennedy: And finally, ‘marriage or dating will fix a homosexual.’ I’m sure numbers of homosexuals have had friends that wanted to “set them up” with somebody of the opposite sex.
Alan Chambers: It’s true - you know, often times we want -- in our simple minds -- to find a fix for everything. And, the truth is, that in the grand scheme of things, homosexuality and heterosexuality are no opposite from one another. I didn’t leave homosexuality to become heterosexual, I left homosexuality because that’s what my relationship with Christ commanded me to do.
So, the opposite of homosexuality isn’t heterosexuality, it’s holiness. And so to think that we can substitute one issue for another, is wrong. We have to submit our wills and desires to the Lordship of Christ, and in that, he will direct us down the perfect path for us. And for many of us it’s been marriage, or dating relationships. But the truth is, there are a lot of people out there who have struggled with homosexuality who will never get married - but who have overcome the issue of homosexuality in their lives, and have become absolutely submitted to Christ, in their sexuality, and are healthy examples of how all of us should live our lives.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well, what are some practical steps that our listeners can take to minister to homosexuals?
Alan Chambers: The most practical step that we can take in ministering to homosexual and lesbian people is ~ we could lose the issue of homosexuality altogether, and just see them as people in need of a savior.
We don’t have to have all of the answers to the issue of homosexuality. We don’t have to know how to specifically minister to gay and lesbian people. All we have to know is that Jesus died for us, and he made a difference in our life, and he wants to do the same thing in their lives as well.
And I think that’s just a very simple way for us in the Church to look at this issue. It doesn’t matter what anyone struggles with, what matters is, we’re all in need of a savior.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well, how does your organization, entitled Exodus International, help churches and individual Christians to do a better job of ministering to homosexuals?
Alan Chambers: For years, Exodus was a ministry that was sold out to ministering to individuals. We have ministries all around the world that reach out to those who are struggling with homosexuality, to families. And five years ago, when I became the president of Exodus, I realized that I did receive help through this ministry when I was walking through my struggle with homosexuality, but the biggest help that I received, was from the local church.
And if we were going to be successful, in the future, with reaching out in a way that we’ve never reached out before, it was going to be, not only, ministering to individuals, but ministering to churches, that have a far greater ability to reach the multitudes with the message that change is possible.
And so today, Exodus International, our first and foremost mission is to reach the Church with the truth that change is possible. To educate, equip, and mobilize them to understand this issue, and to go out into their communities and reach men and women for Jesus Christ.
So, we have a church network, that is seeking to have 10,000 and more churches who are part of a---so that when people call Exodus for help, and we receive 400,000 phone calls and emails every year, from people who are hurting, when people call Exodus, we want them to plugged in to a local church. Where they’re enveloped into a congregation, invited into body ministry, and find the transforming power of Jesus Christ in a community of believers that will change their life.
Dr. James Kennedy: Would you have any idea about how many people, since we often hear that they cannot change, would you have, as an organization, any idea of how many people who were involved in homosexuality, have changed their sexual orientation?
Alan Chambers: We estimate, roughly, that there have been millions of people who have been affected by this message, and who have been reached with this message. And we would say hundreds of thousands of men and women have found freedom from homosexuality.
Dr. James Kennedy: Well, thank you for sharing with us today. This has been Alan Chambers, who is the president of Exodus International-a worldwide ex-gay ministry that has succeeded in leading many many many thousands of people that were trapped in homosexual behavior, into a Christian and Godly life.
And dear listener, I hope that you have learned why the homosexual agenda has been so successful. I also pray that you’ll be better able to minister to those who are trapped in this lifestyle, after listening to today’s program.
Alan Chambers, thank you again for being with us on today’s program.
Alan Chambers: Thank you so much.
Dr. James Kennedy: God bless ya.
~~~~Announcer: Alan Chambers is just one example of those whose lives who’ve been changed through experiencing God’s Love. And we pray you and your church will explore ways that you can reach out to those struggling with sin, whatever that sin may be. And we invite you to spend some time at our website, to learn more, about this and other issues. TruthsThatTransform.org
While you’re there, please check out current book offer: How Would Jesus Vote - a Christian perspective on the issues. Jesus is king over everyone and everything, and yet, too many of us don’t consider how He would have and act and vote - outside the four walls of the Church. This book helps you begin applying what you say you believe, in relation to the culture around you. Get you copy today--when you support our work with a gift of $30...or more [Emproph: Which apparently you can get on Amazon for about $11.50 ('less you want to be "thrifty" about it and get it used for about $7)]. How Would Jesus Vote. You’ll find it online at truthsthattransform.org. Or you can call your gift 1-800-229-WORD, 800-229-9673
Tuesday, whatever you’re calling, you know you want to serve Christ effectively. Join us with a special guest who provides Biblical principles for Christian service. And until then may the truths in God’s Word continue to transform your heart.
Views expressed by guests on this program are not necessarily those of Coral Ridge Ministries, Dr. D. James Kennedy, or this station.
First of all, you have to realize that transcription is tedious and boring - even with the foot pedal machine and all. (I usually start wishing I owned a gun after about five minutes. This one was 25 minutes long).
Secondly, first you have to listen to it to see if it’s worthy of transcribing, then listen to it again as you’re recording it, and then listen to it again AS you’re transcribing it. And that may turn out to be SEVERAL more times, depending on how articulate the dialogue is.
THEN, you're supposed to listen to (and read) it again to catch any mistakes! (BTW, I didn't do that for this one (I couldn't handle it), so there may be tons of typos. Just a forewarning ;)
I will say this though, as much as I can’t stand these guys, they know how to talk in complete sentences.