Friday, May 29, 2009

Reference post: Joyce Meyer, anti-gay

In a rare public showing of her second face, Joyce Meyer explains to CNN’s Larry King, how she “chose” heterosexuality (No doubt around the same time in her life that she chose to have white skin).

I used to love watching her sermons on TV. She had a sense of humor, and a way of taking the arcane language of the Bible and making its message very practical. Even if you took God and the Bible out of her sermons, The message would still stand - "Hurting people hurt people" is one of the quips that has stayed with me over the years.

Anyway, I haven't listened to her since I found out from her website just how anti-gay she is. I felt betrayed, not just because she was anti-gay, but because she never preached openly about it -- no doubt to maintain her gay and pro-gay coffers.

So when I saw her on this Larry King interview, her comments about her own heterosexuality, in regard to homosexuality, were the icing on that dung cake.
CNN LARRY KING LIVE

Interview With Joyce Meyer

Aired May 19, 2005 - 21:00 ET

KING: Do you -- what are your thoughts when you say you love all people? What are your thoughts about -- you mentioned earlier judge not lest you be judged. Do you judge homosexuality?

MEYER: Well, I knew you'd ask me this, too.

KING: I think you're more of a psychic than a (INAUDIBLE).

MEYER: No...

KING: You knew something I didn't know, because I never know what I'm going to ask.

MEYER: But I kind of watch what you've been asking, those questions. Obviously, Larry, if I believe the Bible, then I don't believe that a gay lifestyle or a homosexual lifestyle is the right way to choose to live. I believe that there's something so much better.

KING: You believe it's a choice?

MEYER: I believe it's definitely a choice.

KING: So you chose heterosexuality?

MEYER: Yes.

KING: How did you choose it? Because I chose it, but I don't remember how I chose it. I mean, I'm heterosexual, but I don't know why I'm heterosexual.

MEYER: Yeah.

KING: I know that I'm heterosexual.

MEYER: Well, I think that that's the natural way that God intended us to be. I just followed the natural way that I was. I didn't have to consciously think, do I want to do this or don't I?

KING: So the people who are gay then chose it?

MEYER: I believe that, yes.

KING: Why would they choose it?

MEYER: I think a lot of different reasons. I believe a lot of people that are gay, had even had problems like I had in the past. I think they've been hurt by somebody from the opposite sex, and they don't know how to function right in those relationships.

When you're hurt very badly in your childhood, the area that it has the greatest effect on is relationships. Once you feel like you can't trust people, once you feel like that they don't care about you, that they're really not going to take care of you, it gets very difficult in relationships. And you know, I've been so mistreated by male authority in my life that I had a terrible time in my marriage trying to be a submissive wife, you know. I mean, I wanted to rule the roost in everything. And it wasn't even really that I was rebellious; I was afraid of being hurt. And I think that a lot of people that choose these alternative lifestyles, I think it's because they've been hurt somewhere along the line very badly.

KING: We'll be right back with Joyce Meyer. The book soon to come -- I'll ask about it -- "Approval Addiction" what does she mean by that after this.
Mel White notes -- from Theocracy Watch -- Meyer’s attack on the concept of separation of church and state, in his book Religion Gone Bad:
But the award for the most vicious attack goes to Joyce Meyer, the TV preacher who co-sponsored the Christian Coalition’s national meeting. Meyer lambasted the constitutional concept as “really a deception of Satan.”

44 comments:

Anonymous said...

So because Joyce and others 'stands by what the Word of God' says, they're to be hated?
'You' mean you'd take "man's" word over the God who cared about you, and loved you 'before' this world came into existance? Wow, that's amazing.
So again, if God and Jesus came down from heaven 'themselves' and "proved" to 'you' who homosexuality is wrong, 'you'd' still not believe 'them'?
Joyce or not Joyce, we ask that you seek God/Jesus while 'they' may be found. 'They' really are concerned about you. We'll be praying for you all the same.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for my errors (stand, existence, why, or no Joyce), I was typing kind of fast to get my idea across

Emproph said...

Hi Anon, apparently you missed my point:

KING: So you chose heterosexuality?

MEYER: Yes. … I just followed the natural way that I was
---
Doing nothing is not a choice, it’s acquiescence.

Meyer contends that doing nothing about her opposite-gender attraction is equal to going out of one’s way to be attracted to the same-gender.

Even if same-sex attraction was a choice, IT IS NOT A CHOICE to do nothing.

Meyer attempts to equate doing nothing with doing something. Which is wholly unfair. Idiotic at best and hateful at worst.

Do you not agree?

“if God and Jesus came down from heaven 'themselves' and "proved" to 'you' who homosexuality is wrong, 'you'd' still not believe 'them'?”

I could ask the same of you:

“if God and Jesus came down from heaven 'themselves' and "proved" to 'you' who homosexuality is God approved, 'you'd' still not believe 'them'?”

You imply that, I as a homosexual, am too stupid to realize that I am actually attracted to the opposite gender. That being the case, you should instead “pray” that I recognize my own idiocy.

Further, what if I’m an atheist? What evidence do you have (besides a book written by fallible men) that God/Jesus is real?

You need to start with that before you can expect me to respect your point of view on the subject.

Then we can talk.

-Patrick

Jordan said...

If your not a Christian then why would it offend you if a Christian expressed their beliefs as Joyce Meyer did. She isn't a "Self help" guru or a "motivational" speaker, she's a pastor a disciple for our Lord. If you dont' agree with what she said, which is written in the bible in several passages....then you don't believe the word of God. You can't pick and choose what passages you want to believe and what ones you don't. And if your not a believer anyways, then their is no sense in you getting upset, you should expect a pastor to preach on the sin of homosexuality.

Emproph said...

Jordan, Christian or not, it’s offensive to me when someone tells the world that I have made a choice that I haven’t, especially when that alleged choice is understood to be sinful. It’s even more insulting when the person making that charge defines their own “choice” as having not made one at all. It’s an unfair double standard.

And contrary to your assertion, she’s quite the “self help” guru, and “motivational” speaker. Have you listened to her sermons or been to a bookstore lately?

She’s an anointed preacher to be sure. She puts the oft-times unapproachable parts of the Bible into practical understandings that make it that much easier to apply in one’s life. She just has a blind spot in desperate need of attention--as do many, if not most anti-gay preachers.

“You can't pick and choose what passages you want to believe and what ones you don't”

If you believe that's true, then you only have contradiction to offer.

If incest is a sin, then why did God’s original design for family include it? Adam and Eve and their children were indeed fruitful and multiplied.

If polygamy is a sin, then why did God tell David that He gave him wives and would have given him more?

2 Samuel 12:7-9: “I gave your master's house to you, and your master's wives into your arms. … And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more.”

And if the Bible is inerrant, why is there a warning on the last page warning not to change it?

Revelations 22:18-19: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

And do you, or Joyce Meyer, or any other preacher you know of condemn the adultery of remarriage with the same fervor that is reserved for we gays?

Luke 16:18: “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.”

How many of those marriage amendments do you think would have passed if the adultery of remarriage was condemned as openly and as often as homosexuality is?

“You can't pick and choose what passages you want to believe and what ones you don't.”

Still care to stand by that statement?

“And if your not a believer anyways, then their is no sense in you getting upset, you should expect a pastor to preach on the sin of homosexuality.”

Simple “preaching” isn’t the problem, it’s the hypocrisy, demonization and spreading of lies that’s making our lives a living hell.

If you are unaware of the intentional dishonesty that your dictators urge you to spread, then you have some Googling to do.

So there’s EVERY reason for a non-believer to get upset.

For the record, though, I’m not a believer, I’m a seer.

Matthew 5:8: “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.”

Faith is not an ends, Jordan, it’s a means to sight.

Ask and you shall receive

Ask yourself, is your faith strong enough to ask?

~Patrick

Patrilla said...

You are right Emproph. You should not just pick the part of a religion that favours you but the whole part
It is hypocrisy to claim a religion and only practise the part of the religion that favours you. If you are going to believe in a religion, believe in the whole thing.
So you cannot accept one part of the bible and ignore the other.
And yes the bible should not be changed or else there are consequences. As stated in Revelations 22:18-19.
Even God would never change his words. If He changed his words, he would have destroyed the whole world with water again and another Noah’s ark will have to be built
So you see any pastor who claims the Christian faith but yet compromises the word of God. Is nothing but a bar-jesus, who the bible has warned against.
From all that you have written. You are either curious about the Christian faith or you are a Christian with a lot of questions. But Christianity cannot be understood but thinking but by feeling. As man can never understand God even if he thinks with his whole life. But you can feel, trust, love, hear and speak to God in your heart.
Christianity cannot be understood with the mind but with the heart. But before you can understand the Christian faith, you have to understand the meaning of the word Christian
The disciples were first called Christians in Antioch because they were Christ-like. Read Act 11:26, Act 26:28-29 and 1Peter 4:16. Christ-like means to follow the teachings of Jesus
And in the bible Jesus said that a man should marry only one wife, The bible also only permits a divorce when adultery is committed
The bible is also greatly against homosexuality. This is the reason why Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed.
When God wanted to create a companion for Adam, He made a woman named Eve. Not a man named Steve
God told Noah to put every animal in pairs, male and female, according to their breed, inside the ark. Not two male pairs
As a Christian. It is right to believe that homosexuality is wrong. Because it is a sin to God and a sin to nature. Even animals do not develop lust for a same sex for God ordered man to go into the world and reproduce. Thus any pastor that allows gay marriage is a bar-jesus
It is with great pains that I tell you this. The devil’s greatest achievement is hot reducing the belief in God and Christianity. But painting himself as God and getting people to believe in him
You are probably confused right now. And the last thing you need is a self righteous Christian judging you. So it is with great joy that I tell you this
“God loves you! I do not have all the answers to your questions. For I myself, I am flesh. But if you talk to God and believe in your heart that you are talking to him. I say onto yo with confidence. He will answer you! Just listen with your heart, because He always answers in the most unexpected and touching ways

Anonymous said...

Quoting the last page of the bible to interpret the passage applies to the whole copy you are holding is a grave misunderstanding of the "book". It wasn't written or compiled at one time, it's a collection and a translation of a translation of a translation with lots of existing different versions. You can't possibly believe you have an unaltered version of any ancient original.

Emproph said...

Patrilla, you need to work on your comprehension skills. I had already addressed much of what you said, and your interpretations of the Bible are all over the map.

“It is with great pains that I tell you this. The devil’s greatest achievement is … painting himself as God and getting people to believe in him. You are probably confused right now. And the last thing you need is a self righteous Christian judging you.”

Pains shmaines, it’s with a sense of superiority that you say those things. What you’re really saying is that I’m too “confused” to know the difference between good and evil.

You are indeed a self righteous Christian judging me.

So, telling me that God loves me, coming from people like you, is condescending and insulting. You are in no position to judge God’s relationship with me.
---
Anon: “You can't possibly believe you have an unaltered version of any ancient original.”

I don’t, but anti-gay supremacists do, which is why I was pointing it out. The passage in Revelation means -- in no uncertain terms -- that “the” Bible itself admits that it’s capable of error.

-Patrick

Anonymous said...

As a Catholic and a Lesbian I continue to watch Joyce Meyer and occasionally so does my wife of 4 years. Man wrote the bible in Translating GOD's word. Man is not nearly perfect, concepts get lost in translation. If we so choose to judge soo quickly we are just as guilty as the HOMOPHOBIC persons whom just us , judge and be judged;or live and let live . Only one GOD has the right and ability to judge us , he made us who we are and only gives us what we can handle. I do not believe I had a choice however if it was an unconcious choice I stand proud of the choice or gift I was given .

Anonymous said...

You don't have to accept the entire bible as law to be a christian, you simply have to believe in jesus and what he said and did according to the four gospels. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. According to the bible, jesus never condemned slavery, so are we to believe that jesus approved slavery? Certainly not! We need ro understand that we are spiritually evolving, but god has always been the same. It is our interpretation of God that has changed through the ages. Gay and christian are not mutually exclusive. Amen.

Anonymous said...

I also I'm a catholic gay, and I believe the golden rules are the basics to live by.... I don't remeber gay being sort of those.
As far as choice... Hahaha. I wish I would of had a choice. I spent many years forcely myself to be straight, however, as Joyce teaches we must have clean free hearts to truely know God. My heart is very clean and free with my wife of 9 years and our new baby girl. And I pray every day that she hasn't been born gay, I hope she is straight, not because I believe it wrong in anyway but because I want her life to be as easy and happy as possible. On that note, I pray she is smart and pretty too, are those things a "choice" as well?!

cody said...

ahemmmmm guys guys...... funny qoutes all of you including mayer. i listen to mayer a hell a lot on god.tv and i apprreciated her.but now i got mayer's flaw on the concept about being homosexual.well iam gay. and i know my sexuality when i was in 7 standard. no one teaches me how to be gay. i dont even know what gay things are even when i was little . i just like matured guys itself.of course i dont wana be gay ... i wana be a straigh, have my wife and kids. i dont choose this lifestyle. i live up very smooth in my mom bossom with her love, cares, prayer nd all. i do pray to my lord jesus. he never condemed me just because iam a gay . he of course hate when i had sex around with a bunch of guys. still, i believed in so called love. love one another as jesus told us to do. in love everything is fair. god loves all be it gay or lesbo. he says come as you are . come to me and have life. he died on the cross for all. he died for a homosexual person like me. but one thing i do know i donot choose my sexuality at all.

Anonymous said...

To hell with you and your bible. God loves us all and made us who we are. This may come as a flash to you, but your bible was written by men.

Anonymous said...

Heh. "I'm a gay Catholic" seems as absurd to me as someone saying "I'm a Nazi Jew."

Luke said...

There were Nazi Jews. You know that, right?
I identify as a gay man, and my relationship with God is different-as everyone's should be. The influence of culture and society on religion are what determine the focuses of that particular religion. Jesus surrounded himself with unmarried men and prostitutes. It is important to consider the environment your Christ belonged to.

Tara Halbert said...

It makes me sad that it seems to be only gay people that act like they have any sense. I'm a Christian. The bible was written by men. And there are a million things I could sort through the Internet and quote from various scholars and such, that state otherwise concerning the common ignorant belief about homosexuality. Of course you can be a Catholic lesbian. You love who you love. You don't choose it. And every time there is a debate like this, I go back to the same mindset. Homosexuality is not, has never been, and never will be a choice. You cannot choose who you love. So with that in mind I don't think, I know, that if God is a loving God, he would never create people to live a miserable life because they had to be both alone and persecuted forever for something they had no control over. That would mean God was not as we know or think of Him. But that he is indeed, extremely EVIL. So I have no choice to but to believe the way that I do. Ever watched "The Bible Tells Me So?" This supports many of the things everyone has been saying. And yes, if God "came down here" and told me that homosexuality was wrong, I would not argue. But I would gladly tell him that I obviously never belonged to him, because I cannot condemn innocent people that way, and that HE had betrayed me. I would go Hell without a fight if that was the case. THAT is how strongly I feel about this.

joseph Smith said...

If you truly follow the word of the Bible then I assume you are posting from jail, having killed a homosexual or someone who was caught gathering sticks on the Sabbath. I am glad no one actually really follows everything the Bible says (westboro Baptist comes close ) because I would have been stoned to death by now for free thought.

Anonymous said...

There are very many good points made in these comments. I , who claim to be a Christian, and heterosexual not by choice, have never understood the the Bible on the subject of homosexuality. God created all men and women..the way they are...I will leave all the rest up to Him. This gay hatred and Bible bashing of gays is what really seperates me from organized religion., and sometimes Christianity.

Emproph said...

Thanks for all the recent posts, guys. I haven't been back to this thread in awhile.

Tara: "And yes, if God "came down here" and told me that homosexuality was wrong, I would not argue. But I would gladly tell him that I obviously never belonged to him, because I cannot condemn innocent people that way, and that HE had betrayed me. I would go Hell without a fight if that was the case. THAT is how strongly I feel about this."

AGREED

cws said...

I am so glad I found this post. My wife passed away this past December and I have been floundering ever since. I've listened to Joyce and just recently thought I might make a trip to the women's conference this month. I wanted a little more info on her beliefs and did a quick google.
God is LOVE. Inside out I beleive that. It's only the human side of man that teaches hate and will be our ultimate demise.

Anonymous said...

The god, to them I Pray, Love me and accept me how i am! I´m gay, and my God love me for this ... He love me, Love You and love all other of this World. The Bible was written by people like you and me. And they have a lot of mistakes. Now i ask all people who hate gays becouse a Book told you this. In the Bible is written, that incest is allowed, and in some stories talk about them. So i ask you: Is Incest allowed? I am gay, and im Proud of it. My god love me, how i am. This is my God, This is my religion. Noone can told me other things becouse he/she isnt like us! If you are be gay, you would say the same like me. Heterosexuals cant judge about a homosexuel people ... course the DONT (!) understand how we feel. To hate us, course we do this, what god from us want, to love other people and be happy in our live is stupid and racist.We should think about, that our god, our creator just love us, how we are. Heterosexual - Homosexual ... Sorry, i CANT See a diffrent!
Excuse me by the way for my very badd english, im german and my english isnt very well. But i just want to tell it again: GOD LOVE US, EVEN IF WE ARE GAY! God bless ALL people the World!

Emproph said...

Thanks for your input, Anon.

Not only is incest "allowed," but God intended it. Adam and Eve had children, and those brothers and sisters had children!

Polygamy is also God approved. Check out 2 Samuel 12:8:

"I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more."

And 2 Samuel 12:11 This is what the Lord says..."I will take your wives and give them to one who is close to you, and he will sleep with your wives in broad daylight."

-Patrick

Emproph said...

cws, I'm sorry to hear about your wife passing and that you've been floundering ever since.

I can't imagine the loss you must feel. I pray that you find some solace -- soon.

-Patrick

Anonymous said...

I am leary of anyone that portrays themself as someone that is compassionate to all people but then cannot see anyone outside thier own box of experience: ie because she had problems with man growing up then that is why she feels gays would turn to being gay. what of those that are gay and never had negative experiences from the opposite gender?

Anonymous said...

TV evangelists, they're all of the devil.

Anonymous said...

You loved watching her so much; yet, you disagree with her on one point and no longer want anything to do with her? How is that working out for you? Do all your friends agree with every belief you have? Do you cut them out of your life if they do not? Be free pal. Allow people to be themselves and you do the same. You don't need to control the world. The beauty of being free is that we can diagree and still love one another. Something drew you to Joyce and gave you joy. Can you set this disagreement aside and go back to that which brought you joy. You don't need to control the world. Follow your heart and ask God for guidance. Let people be themselves and you do the same. You will be much happier. It is liberating to know that you disagree with someone and can still love them. This is what's called "growing up." Hope this helps.

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

Anonymous: "You loved watching her so much; yet, you disagree with her on one point and no longer want anything to do with her?"

Anon, you missed the point. She conflated making a choice (to be same-sex attracted) with making NO choice (to be opposite-sex attracted) in order to brandish gays as “sinful.”
--
MEYER: I believe it's definitely a choice.
KING: So you chose heterosexuality?
MEYER: Yes.
KING: How did you choose it? Because I chose it, but I don't remember how I chose it. I mean, I'm heterosexual, but I don't know why I'm heterosexual.
MEYER: …I just followed the natural way that I was. I didn't have to consciously think, do I want to do this or don't I?
--
That’s not only logically idiotic, but to apply it to homosexuals in particular, is bigoted. That’s no simple disagreement.

And yes, I would cut friends and family out of my life who were that stupid and bigoted. Loving them as my brothers and sisters does not apply in circumstances like that, they are delusional to the point of being dangerously anti-gay influential (which is not to say I don’t pray for them and attempt to love them as best as I can).

I cannot set this so called “disagreement” aside because EVERYTHING she now says would need to be seen through this lens, this infuriating lens.

I would have more respect for her if she were open about it in her TV sermons, but she is not, which makes me suspect to the reason WHY she doesn’t (pro-gay $$$?).

True or not, the idiotic bigotry she expresses undermines any anointed message she may share.

Anonymous said...

Let's keep things in perspective. I've heard Joyce talk about many many things. I don't see that she hides her views about homosexuality. She has spoken about it. How much of her sermons should be dedicated to sexuality? How much of the bible is dedicated to sexual issues as compared to talking about God's love for us? I would rather hear about God's love for me and how I should love others. I would rather hear about forgiveness, joy, love, peace, etc. Is sexuality such a part of your life that sermons about God should also be filled with talk about sexuality? How much is enough? If you felt strongly about your position on homosexuality, I do not believe you would be so easily offended. If you are a person who eats meat, do vegans offend you? If you are a vegan, do people who eat meat offend you to the degree that those who believe that homosexuality is a sin offend you? Is homosexuality your defining characteristic or is your defining characteristic the fact that you are a beautiful, loving, child of God? Brother, pray about this. God will show you who you are if you ask him. Ask God why those who view homosexuality as sin offend you. Perhaps your spirit is stirring. Do you feel closer to God when you are engaged in homosexual sex? How about immediately after you are done? Do you feel closer to God when you abstain from sex?

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

Part 1
---
"Let's keep things in perspective."

Yes, let us: You’re not listening.

"Ask God why those who view homosexuality as sin offend you."

I don’t need to, I already know the answers to that and I’m trying to E-X-P-L-A-I-N it to you.

The only reason this is personal is because I happen to be a homosexual. Notice that I said "be" as in "being," and by extension, "human being."

"Is sexuality such a part of your life that sermons about God should also be filled with talk about sexuality? … Do you feel closer to God when you are engaged in homosexual sex? … after you are done? … when you abstain from sex?"

I’m not the one who’s bringing it up, she is, and you are. I’m simply drawing attention to that fact and the WAY it is being brought up.

"If you are a person who eats meat, do vegans offend you? If you are a vegan, do people who eat meat offend you to the degree that those who believe that homosexuality is a sin offend you?"

Your vegan vs. meat eaters is not an applicable analogy, both are choices or food-consumption "beliefs," but you do it in order to equate the non-choosable human-sexuality of -- crafted by God -- homosexual-persons as things that can be singled out or "believed" to be sinful.

Like I said, it’s offensive to me because I’m the one who’s being singled out as having chosen my human-sexuality, as having chosen to be same sex attracted.

Now, you can believe, in the face of my every protestation to the contrary, that somehow, someway, somewhere in my mind, something happened that made me up and expunge every iota of opposite-gender attraction, and then fully import and replace that with same-gender attraction, whether it be because of confusion, or something subconscious, or because I was molested and don’t remember it, or WHATEVER, SO BE IT.

It’s an absurd and convoluted concept, but if you choose to believe that, and though it’s insulting to the bone, like I said, so be it. But if you want me to respect that belief, you need to be willing to tell me to my face that you believe that I am so screwed up in the head that I don’t remember why or how I "chose" to accomplish such a feat.

However, Meyer, and by extension, you, in your defense of her and implied in your comments, are saying that I made the CONSCIOUS "choice" to "expunge every iota of opposite-gender attraction, and then fully import and replace that with same-gender attraction" as evidenced by her explanation of how she "chose" to be attracted to the opposite gender:

MEYER: "…I just followed the natural way that I was. I didn't have to consciously think, do I want to do this or don't I?"

Ergo, LGBT people DON’T just follow the natural way that they are, but DO consciously think, "do I want to [be] this or don't I?"

Claiming, albeit by default, that LGBT people make a conscious choice to be the way they are, but heterosexuals don’t, is a BASELESS and therefore scurrilous charge.

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

Part 2
---
She influences millions of people, and there are millions of LGBT persons, about 5+% of the population. So, to spread such a careless, unfounded falsehood like that is no small offense, it’s a HUGE one. She’s basically giving tacit approval to psychologically abuse and spiritually violate people like me in the name of "God says so."

Those people VOTE, and whether they know it or not, have children, family members, friends and/or co-workers who are LGBT.

So, because of her and religious leaders like her, they vote for laws that persecute and oppress the millions of people like me, and by proxy, our and otherwise unwanted children suffer as well.

You’ve heard of the term "No victim, no crime." Well, if God is truly just, then the same applies to sin. Jesus' telling of God’s only command is the perfect indication of this.

If God is Love, then the only command is to love Love, doing unto others what you would have them do unto you would naturally follow.

This is God's only Will, summed up in a nutshell, by Jesus, upon which the entire truth of the Bible pivots. Jesus said as much.

To believe that something that harms no one and no thing is sinful is an inherent violation of this principle, which would make the choice to believe such a thing a sin in itself.

That is what it ultimately comes down to. Believing homosexuality is a sin is like believing left-handedness is a sin. Believing "homosexual behavior" is a sin is like believing left-handed "behavior" is a sin (which it used to be considered to be).

Anything and everything in the Bible that depicts God’s Will as anything other than the Golden Rule is a misinterpretation or a flat out mistake. The Bible is riddled with error, overt contradictions and otherwise.

But, if you’ve experienced God’s Spirit, ideas like a "vengeful god" and all that comes forth from such a god become see-through, and the original intent is understood as consistent with the abounding Love that God Is, and His accompanying Will of the Golden Rule remains intact.

-Back on topic-

Inside information notwithstanding, over the years I’ve become so familiar with all the gay-bashing Bible verses to the point that I’ve literally, yet unintentionally, studied them in depth. I never went at it with the goal of "refuting" them per se, but I’ve discovered that NONE of them are talking about homosexuality itself.

Some of that conclusion has come from a greater scrutiny of the context in which they were written, some of them are used with outright thoughtlessness, and some of it was just a matter of time before two and two seeped together.

And as I said, there are plenty of things in the Bible that do not reflect a god who is love, so I would admit it if any of those passages were indeed talking about the, for lack of a better term, "phenomenon" of same-gender attraction and transgenderism being somehow sinful.

But all that’s a whole ‘nother conversation (which I’m perfectly willing to have, btw).

-Patrick

Anonymous said...

Look I go by what Jesus has said and Jesus NEVER spoke about Homosexuality. And all those who want to live exactly as the bible tells them then both Men and Women should be virgins when they marry. The old testament bans bacon and if a person has ejaculated then they are not allowed in a place of worship until 7 days after their last ejaculation and they must have bathed every single day. Oh and we cant play with the skins of animals so no football.

Anonymous said...

As a global society, we do not have to agree, endorse or condone the lifestyle choices of others. However, history has taught us that we equally cannot and should not excuse those who would hide behind religion or misuse God’s word to justify bigotry and persecution.

Anyone know who said this?

lorenzo said...

Homosexuality has been around a long time. The sexual orientation always begins from the first early years with a mom/dad or just a single parent-or a single adult-modulating such normal human growth
of sexual awareness of self:than the stimulation of curiousity, from looking and perhaps touching experiences, is maturely, and hopefully,lovinly guided by the adult(s)responsible for directing those growing years on whatever paths are defined as good,or not good;usually from traditional religious-moral identification from day one:for Christians that begins at Baptism-other faiths can point to some ground zero in their family cycle when the seeds of traditional morality were grounded in the child.If the child grows a home enviornment feeling safe, secure, and loved than the stages of youthful sprouting need not be sheltered in a dark corner with fear and shame:a loving home with "Mature" parents will not a dsyfunctional home life. Mature, adult parents, watch the growing years and more or less know when the time comes to "intervene" with direction for their children. Parents that have perpetual adolescent thinking minds, that harbor past emotional injuries,live their own tormented lives with some addiction,sexual frustrations,mental instabilities, or just plain uneducated upbringing themselves, will be the catalyst that perpetuates emotional disaster for their children. If a child of 13-15yrs old can relate to a parent that an observed behavior of another, or hearing or seeing some reality, of something, not quite in the norm of what is knowing as-'just messing around with the other kids'-or of some social aciivity within the social context of daily living as being "weird","nutty", "just seems wrong"-thats the cue for open forum to begin before the child floats off into looking for answers from other "sources" out there. The old expression in spanish-"who doesn't have a father in the home will find him in the street" has much weight!
The adult that has the reigns for a childs direction should always avail him/herself to not hide the words-"That is wrong-that leads to Sin-that leads to much pain up the road-and it isn't worth it in the eyes of God."
Let's forget that since the fall of our first parents, where redemtion of a Messiah was promised to the 'chosen People', Satan, The Evil One has had generations following the human growth of Mankind. The Devil has a PHD in every academic subject-he is a master of twisting and distortion, mixing truths with half truths and lies,especially looking to swollow the souls of those called to be "The Elect"!
This business of Homosexuality by the late 20th century acquiring a facelift to take the sting out of any thoughts of such behavior being Sin comes from the Hell with the most sophisticated language echoing soft melodies that could only be hurt from the voice of angels. That is the power of The Evil One that dominates the podium in this new century.
Teach your children this-nurture them with the simple humble posture of kneeling in pray.
Al Pacino's movie-The Devil's Advocate-is good-very good with much food for thought here.

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

“…The old testament bans bacon and if a person has ejaculated then they are not allowed in a place of worship until 7 days after their last ejaculation and they must have bathed every single day.”

Don’t forget this gem:

Deuteronomy 22:6-7: “If you come across a bird’s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young. You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.”

Anonymous said...

Joyce Meyers is a Christian so why would he even ask her that question?...he should have already known the answer! A true Christian believes Gods word but obviously he hasn't read Gods word. The funny thing is Christians are condemned for their beliefs that have been around since the beginning of time but when their beliefs contradicts others beliefs they act surprised that a Christian would think that way and think that Christians are wrong! Larry king should maybe rethink his beliefs instead of condemning Joyce Meyers for hers!

Elizabeth Angell said...

If you read the bible, you'll understand that everything you referenced is related to the old covenant with God. Since Jesus died, we aren't called to stone people anymore. Its worth understanding what you read.
Also, Joyce was saying she made a lifestyle choice. You can be gay and attracted to the same sex, but choosing to live that out, to act on the feelings, goes against what God wants for us. She choose to act the way God wants. Homosexuals can choose to not engage in homosexual activity.

Anonymous said...

Any moron who would say either believe the whole bible, or none of it, hasn't actually read the whole bible. There's hundreds of websites that list crazy crazy versus of when we should kill people, stone people, ect. and these homophobes are honeing in on one part, because our over masculinated, football, blood thirsty culture tells them too. Historically there are many holes in the bible and some scripture was removed and hidden in caves in scrolls, also found and carbon dated. These idiots also don't realize a large handful of thier forefathers, starting with Thomas Jefferson were indeed atheists ( proof ahead) who succeeded from England to start a free nation, free to have or not have religion freely without persecution. Fact: Thomas Jefferson wrote his own bible taking out Jesus miracles, the virgin birth, the rebirth, and the promise of heaven. Thomas Jefferson beloved in the good religion could do and the golden law. Not the fairy tale. Along with many of his colleges this was a tight group of men many of whom thought alike. These are the people who wrote your constitution. This idea of southern America and how they think it was meant to be is anouther scary example of how religion gets out of hand over generations of story telling hence creating the deadly violent Bible Belt cults. Why are we concerned or angry about statements from Christians if we don't believe???? Because it is not harmless, it promotes violence against the innocent. This question makes me laugh, as if they think we are arguing to prove something cause deep down we really know what they know, that there is a god and we are just mad at him, that's their rationale, that's what religion does to you. The real fact is we are all afraid to die, to be forgotten, to become nothing but dust, or live in a world without consequences. This is why it took me 20 yrs to let go of religion I couldn't bear it.

Anonymous said...

When a man wakes up in the morning with, how do I say this appropriately, with an erection. Was that a choice? That is how my body reacts to the same sex. And oppositely nothing happens with the opposite sex. It's easy for heterosexual to say its a choice there minds/ body are hetero programmed from birth no thought process went into this, they can't conceive it because they can't. If it was alien to me and even I didn't understand why I was different how the hell are they gonna understand? And of course the excuses will role out of their mouths ohh something happened to him, ect ect. Not really. Rich, perfect family, perfect parents, friends, sports, ect ect. Perfect life here from birth. Still gay. So if I know it cannot be changed mentally, sure you can choose not to have sex, but you cannot just decide your attracted to women. Trust me I've tried, what innocent child like I was wants to be different, a choice? Lol. If god bore my body this way, from birth then something's wrong in the bible, just like if the bible said kill or hate all black men I would see that as identical to the homosexual vers as it is a physical unchangeable mental biological part of my body.

Anonymous said...

My belief that GOD created me GAY is just as strong as your belief that GOD created you straight. I will not judge you as you should not judge me! My relationship is special and private between me and GOD. Just as yours should be. Why there is so much ado about being gay is quite hateful (another sin) There are 663 sins in the Bible. Why not harp on adultery, divorce, not loving thy brother, jealousy, etc. for awhile. One more thought...there is homosexuality in the animal world. Why did GOD manifest that? Why is it so unnatural? Why are children born as albinos or downs syndrome? Isn't that also unnatural?

Anonymous said...

Homosexuality is a choice.
I just believe that god gives revelation to those who search for him and cry out to him.
I struggled with homosexuality and feelings of confusion and depression.
I prayed and cried out to god(my own choice I didn't have anyone forcing me too do this) deep down I felt it was wrong.
Let me just say this before I continue I don't ridicule or judge anyone who believes there born homosexual.
I also am not asking for punctuation correction or spelling correcection.
that just takes away from the subject at hand and I'd rather not quarrel in minuscule minute nothings.
Im speaking on what I have experience in and have lived.
In my personal experience God revealed to me that I was a victim of circumstances.I had been molested at a very young age,and memories had only started to resurface at the age of 20 because subconsciously I had been blocking them out.only did I receive my revelation around that time coincidently shortly after I began crying out to god.
Which I know believe was answered prayers..
I believe that homosexuals find the idea of switching gender attraction may seem impossible or just plain irrelevant and offensive..I used to feel that way because I used to believe I was doing nothing wrong.
only by gods grace and the precious blood of our savior could I realize I was walking the wide road to hell and have the strength to turn from it..
Not by my own strength but by the power of the holy spirit that dwells within me am I able to do so.
I understand how many homosexuals feel there is nothing wrong with the lifestyle they live because it feels natural but its not.
It really boils down to what the Bible says about these things..
Its your choice to believe or not too
we all have a god to answer to on judgment day
And at that time no argument or manipulation of the Bible will matter anymore.. let the truth be the final judgment..
The Bible is ment to cut like a two edged sword.
its the guidelines and ways god has provided us go live by..if its offending you or making you feel condemned its doing its job..we are born into sin since adam and eve..if none of us had to change our ways then Jesus dying on the cross would of been for nothing because he knew we would need a savior to stand in the gap and teach us,help us turn from sin..

We all have choices and concequences.
Chances are if your a homosexual struggling to be happy in that life or find yourself depressed and searching for answers god is calling you.that's how it starts.I urge you to give him a chance call on him and truth..your prayer can be as simple as god show me what you want for my life. Guide me father..
and he will answer receive christ as your savior and let the holy spirit be your guide..
It gets easier daily and blessings are around every corner.
GOD is good!

From an ex homosexual
Peace and love

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

Part 1:

Elizabeth Angell: "If you read the bible, you'll understand that everything you referenced is related to the old covenant with God. Since Jesus died, we aren't called to stone people anymore. "

So God used to “call” people to commit mass murder, but changed his mind? Quite the feat for a supposedly unchangeable god, don’t you think?

I wouldn’t keep a friend who deemed mass murder moral one day and immoral the next, let alone worship a god who, depending on the millennium, thinks genocide is OK.

Elizabeth Angell: "Joyce was saying she made a lifestyle choice."

By not making a choice.

She changed the definition of choice to make her look good and gays look bad. Choice for her meant not making any choice what so ever.

Her idea of choice for gays however, is that we didn’t not do the same, implying that we recognized we were heterosexual, then consciously expunged any trace of being straight, and then consciously imported (from where, I do not know) same-sex attractions.

I was 4 when I knew I was attracted to men. Most people who are gay felt same-sex attracted as far back as they remember. I have no memory before I was 4 so there was not even a memory of heterosexuality to purge -- let alone the intellectual prowess needed to comprehend and accomplish such an impossible feat.

And away goes your biblical backup. Out of the 6 or 7 anti-gay bible bashing verses deal exclusively with men, and are therefore not about homosexuality. Romans 1:26-27 is the only passage that mentions women:

paraphrased: "Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. … the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another."

Paul was talking about HETEROSEXUALS who “exchanged” or “abandoned” their birth orientation. He’s also talking about sexual behavior and not the drive to find a mate. Point being, homosexuals aren't just heterosexuals having sex with a person of the same gender.
--
You did exactly what she did. You used one standard for yourself and another for gays and called them both choices.

Elizabeth Angell: "She choose to act the way God wants."

You mean the god who changes his mind about the moral merits of mass murder?

Elizabeth Angell: "You can be gay and attracted to the same sex, but choosing to live that out, to act on the feelings, goes against what God wants for us."

-Patrick

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

(Part 2, conclusion)

Homosexuals fall in love just like heterosexuals, heck, these days they’re even getting married. When it comes to pairings like that, sex is an expression of love.

Evil is the love of the absence of love. When two people are “making love” they are celebrating the presence of love, not the absence of it. That means, when two people, genuinely in love, make love, the love they share is of God.

I have absolutely no desire to worship or spend an eternity with a god who designed my nature for the purpose of punishing my expression of it.

Elizabeth Angell: "goes against what God wants for us."

Perhaps you’re one of those who “loves” gay people and is just worried about the salvation of souls?

As far as “saving souls” goes, you and your ilk have WAY bigger fish to fry than the LGBT community that makes up a measly
5% of the population -- Half of all heterosexual marriages end in divorce. And a percentage of those remarry, and according to God, through Jesus, remarriage is adultery:

"Mark 10: 11-12, Jesus: “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”"

You should have your hands full trying to convince those who are remarried that they’re hellbound unrepentant adulterous bigamists, and that their chosen lifestyle "goes against what God wants" for them. Not only are they, biblically speaking, unrepentant sinners, but their lifestyle, and the law that allows it, is a living proclamation to the world (or their little corner of it), that the unrepentant adulterous lifestyle is sanctioned by God.

Or did God change his mind about that too?

It’s not surprising that you don’t seem to see that as sinful (I presume) though given thoughtlessness you put into your comment, but especially your twisted biblical beliefs -- believing that God changes His mind about murder, His previous approval of incest (Adam and Eve’s children), his tacit approval of polygamy and New Covenant condemnation of remarriage as unrepentant adultery.

My guess is that you had your comment written in your head before you were even finished reading the article -- if you even did. It also appears you didn’t read a single previous comment. Everything I am saying to you now, I’ve already explained, numerous times in this thread.

It’s worth comprehending what you read, especially if you’re going to comment on it. Or do you consider credibility to be one of those take it or leave it virtues?

If you’re going to comment here again, I would very much appreciate it if you would read through the other comments first
so you will know whether or not what you have to offer is worth offering. Like I said before, in this very thread, all of the points you raised have previously been rebutted.
___
~Patrick

Patrick Fitzgerald said...

"From an ex homosexual
Peace and love"


Tell me, Mr. Ex homosexual, does "ex homosexual" mean fully heterosexual?

Anonymous said...

God loves the homosexual he hates the sin of homosexuality
.I would be lying if I told you im heterosexual at this point in my life I occupy my mind with gods love and his word meditating on it daily and the sexual urges for either sex are absent as of now.I find the urges that were once there are blinded by the new love I am experiencing now.I have never felt such a strong peaceful joyous love from anyone in the world man or woman,friend or partner. but only god alone has provides this unimaginable love I can't fathom. I truly believe one day soon god is going to bless me with a wife and kids of my own.
I hold on to his promises.I also realize some healings may come over night or over years..I am on gods time and won't question or hurry him along lol.but I am aware and can feel a change taking place everyday spirituality..
Afterall god is spiritual not flesh..
Once again I encourage any one out there to cry out to Jesus for guidance and healing.
Receive Jesus as your savior and lean not on your own understanding but trust in him whole heartily
god bless you