I ran across this post earlier from the "Chronicles of Chew," subtitled, "Cogitations to masticate upon."Commentary follows....
First of all Chew, you'll have to forgive me for not
Not that I'm trying to prevent anyone from seeing them, as I freely link to your post, but my rebuttle is long enough and off the wall enough as it is ;)
That said, the following quoted material in green is from the Chronicles of Chew, and my commentary is inbetween...
A Question of Love - Keith OlbermannYes, lettuce. Since only a person who knows the mind of God could know that the Bible was made of the mind of God.
Keith Olbermann, on MSNBC news had this to say to the people voting for propisition 8 in California.
Plainly put Mr. Olbermann, you certainly do not understand what the faith of Christianity is, or what the bible says about love and homosexuality. First off lets clear the air about this "Universal Love".
People for some reason believe that the God of the bible is a lovey dovey kind of, "aww it's ok I love you" kind of God.Oh my, that's terrible.
God does love you, but you have to understand in what way does God say He loves you. A parent doesn't just raise their children and tell them "aww it's ok, I love you" when their child does something wrong. The parent will tell the child what they have done is wrong and will punish them for it. The same is true of God and the sins of man.God is a god of limited love. Check. And here to think that I’ve been foolishly wasting my time worshipping a god without limitations...
God has told us in the bible that sins are wrong and points out what sins are in the Ten Commandments:So that’s your opening salvo? That there should be laws preventing Americans from working on Sunday, among other things? And what if your parents tell you to work on the Sabbath?
In particular to homosexuality, the God of the bible says this:Wow! And you think that it’s a good thing that you had to be told that mass murder is a good thing?
If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie witha woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be putto death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them. -Leviticus 20:13
Do go on...
Homosexuality is a sin, just as lying, murdering, and adultery is a sin.Reeelly? And here’s where I think you missed Keith’s point, do you really think that two people loving each other is exactly the same thing as lying, murdering and adultery?
Exactly the same? A life sustaining, socially redeeming intimate relationship with a person of the same gender is just as harmful and injurious as lying to someone, murdering someone, or screwing around on your partner behind their back?
Who, pray tell, is victim of same-sex love, Chew?
The God of the Bible is a Loving God, but He is also a God of Justice…This is the love the Bible speaks of, not a "universal love" or a worldy love.So you’re saying that God’s love is "conditional," as opposed to the "universal" AKA unconditional love that dominates this world?
Again, do go on…
God doens't just love everyone,Unlike we Earthly-bound sinners who do love everyone?
He loves everyone in such a way that He sent His Son to die for them as a sacrifice to atone for their sins. If you don't believe in Jesus, then you will still stand condemned.According to whom? The god of the Bible whom you consider yourself to be on par with?
The "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" statement Kieth Olbermann is talking about is half right, it is from the book of Mark in the Bible:Actually it’s from the book of math, everybody love everybody = maximum freedom for all.
And to preempt, there are actions and there are consequences. No God of justice punishes infinitely for finite sins. To believe such is to believe insanity.
So yes, we should love each other as we love ourselves, but we should also love God with our entire being. How do we show God our love? The same way a child shows a parent their love, by listening to them and obeying them.Blindly? Isn't one of the responsibilities of a parent to teach their child to think for themselves, AKA - how to be responsible?
Commiting to what God has said to us in the bible we show Him our love.Let me know when your “Biblical commitments” include the illegalization of divorce and remarriage, and we’ll talk. Until then, BULLSHIT!
By believing that Jesus paid the price for our sins, and that He was truly the Son of God, God in the flesh, and that through Him, turning away from our sins, we are saved from being condemned to an eternity in Hell.
^nuff said^
This doesn't mean we shouldn't share the same rights as human beings in this country,I take it that the "same rights" part was a typo?
but please don't sit there and argue that Christians should "do unto others as you would have other do unto yourself".Who, moi? I've been arguing for years that the best way for you Christians to bring we godless heathens to Christ is to fuck us all over - legally and with impunity.
Using this argument and saying that God is a God of Love, why can't you love us the way your God does is a misunderstanding of this.Those damn godless heathens and their godless god. Breathtaking audacity I tell ya, just breathtaking.
God is a God of Love and Justice.Good God, and here all this time I thought Love was about injustice. *Phew*
As humans we all have rights, however as sinners we all don't deserve any of them. It is only by God's grace alone we have anything at all.(Pause for emphasis...)
Chew, if your “holier than thou” beliefs require such a litany of inconsistency, the suggestion that sin requires no victim, and the idea that the death threat of Leviticus 20:13 is legitimate, and something that needed to be brought to your attention, then your problem isn’t with the definition of marriage, it’s with the definition of God's grace itself.
What you’re suggesting is that this:
Grace: address, adroitness, agility, allure, attractiveness, balance, beauty, breeding, comeliness, consideration, cultivation, decency, decorum, dexterity, dignity, ease, elegance, etiquette, finesse, finish, form, gracefulness, lissomeness, lithesomeness, mannerliness, manners, nimbleness, pleasantness, pliancy, poise, polish, propriety, refinement, shapeliness, smoothness, style, suppleness, symmetry, tact, tastefulness
Is indistinguishable from this:
Leviticus 20:13 "If a man lies with a man...They must be put to death.
You can do better.
5 comments:
The world would be so much better of a place if people would just say no to religion.
Here's something for you to consider along with your fellow supporters who have stormed the church and have done well by showing those haters by stomping on their cross. Yea, that'll teach us about tolerance.
http://thechewchronicles.blogspot.com/2008/11/homosexuals-civil-rights-and-tolerance.html
Chew, you’re seeing and promoting only what you want to see, and that’s not fair.
There is some very sensitive and thoughtful commentary running throughout the “gay-activist” community in regard to this/these incidence(s).
From Box Turtle Bulletin:
Melee In the Castro
"But this is not the way to go. Just as we are exercising our First Amendment rights to peaceful assembly all across this nation, we must remember that those rights are the very same rights to peaceful assembly that they enjoy. And we are exercizing those rights so that we may regain the very same rights to marriage that they enjoy."
From Pam’s House Blend:
This kind of activism isn’t helping
"And mind you, some of the claims of victimhood may be falsified from time to time to deflect attention from the role churches played in Prop 8, but quite frankly, I don't have a great deal of confidence that a slice of our community -- in the outrage and hurt about what went down -- understands or cares about the role of non-violent resistance plays in legitimizing the cause at hand."
From Joe My God:
Chaos In San Francisco As Anti-Gay Christianists Are Chased Out Of The Castro
"I'm really worried about where this is heading. Somebody is going to get killed and we're all going to lose. I'm pissed, we're all fucking pissed, but this is going to a bad place. And I say that knowing that if I had been in the Castro on Friday night, I probably would have been right there in it. We've got the moral upper hand in this fight and every day more and more people see that. But we have GOT to keep these things peaceful. Yell, fuck yeah, YELL. But don't touch. Don't hit. Don't throw. Please."
From Replace the lies with truth:
We Cannot Fight Hate with Hate, We Cannot Change Violence with More Violence
"It is unclear to me if she was with a number of other people or just the one guy holding a sign, but regardless this is unacceptable behavior all around.
…the way she was treated was not acceptable."
From Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters:
Not attacking that 69-year-old woman but there is more to the story
"That behavior was uncalled for but there is more to the story than a lot of people are willing to tell. I found the following on Mike Tidmus's site. He investigated the incident after seeing it on P. LaBarbera's site"
The discussion at Soulforce also notes much observation that there was more to the story than was reported.
Point being that if that's the best example you can find to offer evidence of “intolerance” for your beliefs, then you’re being wholly unfair.
Clearly, much, if not most of the activist gay community stands in solidarity with you in condemning this violent behavior.
Further, you are in no position to claim innocence. You are guilty as charged. You are intolerant. To claim otherwise is to lie.
I am intolerant, I admit it. I am intolerant of your intolerance, and I maintain that my intolerance is rightful and justified.
That doesn't mean that there is nothing left to discuss, or that your concerns are not valid. It just means that there's a starting point of discussion that is further along than you so-far propose.
There is a fundamental difference between your intolerance and mine. Only one of us has room for the other's. And this is what you need to understand before you can argue your concerns about intolerance effectively, and in a way that will be received as respectful.
Until then, I’ll leave you with this from commenter Buffy @ Holy Bullies and Headless Monsters):
BTW, here's a classic by Karl Popper for those who whine about how we won't tolerate their intolerance.
"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."
First off lets address the issue that you say I'm intolerant because I quoted the Bible of which I believe in. It doesn't preach intolerance to people, but intolerance to sin and sinful ways.
As such, I being a sinner myself, stand as guilty of sin as anyone. The message of love in the bible is 2 fold. Love your neighbor as yourself, and Love God. I despise the sinful ways of man. I curse sin in my own life before I would even think to say someone else is in sin. I myself am not anywhere near perfect.
I'm seeing and promoting the views I see just as you have done with my blog post. Chopping it in such a way that you made it seem I wanted to kill homosexuals, which is not what I want or desire or believe. Apparently we both look through rose colored glasses.
The bible says all sins are punishable by death. The reason there is even death in this world (according to the Christian Bible) is because of Adam and Eve disobeying God in the garden of Eden. It has been from that point on for humans to have this adamic nature of sin.
God in His goodness cannot allow sin to happen, and sent His son, Jesus (God in the flesh) to die for all of man's sins. We all are saved from the punishment of sin which is eternity in hell if we believe in Jesus. Turn away from our sinful ways in repentance and follow God. This is what the Christian Bible says.
The only argument I've heard is that it seems homosexuals, and their supporters, want the terms marriage and civil-union to be one and the same. Unless I'm mistaken, they have the same rights do they not? So whats the argument then?
"Unless I'm mistaken, they have the same rights do they not?"
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