How hate speech leads to violence - Frank Schaeffer: "We knew full well"

This conversation between Rachel Maddow and Frank Schaeffer is about anti-abortion extremism in regard to Dr. George Tiller's death. But it could be in regard to any extremist language that leads to violence.

The anti-gay industry and it's employees always say they're against violence against us, especially in response to well publicized hate crimes. This interview articulates quite otherwise.

June 1: Frank Schaeffer, author, Crazy for God: How I Grew Up as One of the Elect, Helped Found the Religious Right, and Lived to Take All (or Almost All) of it Back” explains to MSNBC’S Rachel Maddow how hateful speech leads to violent acts.



You can find the full transcript to this segment, here.

Paraphrased:

@3:45 And when you look at what happened to Dr. Tiller, there‘s a direct line connecting the rhetoric that I was part of as a young man and this murder. And so, people, like me, are responsible for what we said and what we did and the way we raised the temperature on this debate out of all bounds...

@4:40 But I also think that pretending that you can call abortion murder and Tiller the baby killer, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera—and that these worlds don‘ words don‘t have an impact, is crazy.

So, this is what helps unhinge a society, talking like this.

@6:15 ...we took the movement from its early stages when it was more a moral concern, not so much about politics and not so much about changing the law, and radicalized that movement. I follow the step by step process...

And what we did is we talked one game to the large public and we talked another game amongst ourselves… …tonight, there are people who are publicly saying, “This is terrible, we never advocated killing, abortion is murder, but we didn‘t mean people to take us this seriously.” But in private, you know, if these folks popped champion bottles, they would be drinking a toast to this murder tonight.

I know that this is the case because of the fact that I was part of the movement... ...on a private side, we also were egging people on to first pick at abortion clinics, then chain themselves to fences, then go to jail.

We knew full well...what we were also doing was opening a gate here...We live in a country in which guns are all over the place. We have plenty of people with a screw loose, plenty of people on the edge. It only takes one.

And what scare me is that I see the rhetoric of the Republican Party right now…about our newly elected African-American president…Some Christians in the same groups that are pro-life groups are running around saying he‘s the anti-Christ.

They also know full well that we have people out there who will take it to the next step and say, “Well, gee, if he‘s the anti-Christ, if he‘s anti-American, if he‘s a communist, maybe the best thing we can do is pull another trigger some other day.”

James Dobson: "We are shocked by the murder of George Tiller, and we categorically condemn the act of vigilantism and violence that took his life."

Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council: Scripture could not be clearer: "For anyone to intentionally murder another human being is wrong," he wrote to supporters. "...We strongly condemn the actions of this vigilante killer

Al Mohler: "But violence in the name of protesting abortion is immoral, unjustified, and horribly harmful to the pro-life cause."

Carrie Gordon Earll of Focus on the Family Action: "It was shocking news to find that this man was murdered in the foyer of his church, it has to be condemned. It is the sort of act that you hear about and you just almost go into shock, so it must be condemned."

A few "unrelated" quotables for the road:
Peter LaBarbera Americans For Truth About Homosexuality: "While we certainly don’t condone violence against anyone..."

Scott Lively: “We do not promote or condone violence.”

Watchmen on the Walls: "We are the Watchmen on the Walls…We do not promote or condone violence."

People for the Way, Truth and Life does not condone persecution, harassment, violence or disrespectful behavior...In no way does PWTL condone violence or ridicule towards homosexuals.

Randy Thomas: Each time we visit an office, our team was very clear that we do not condone violence.

And our winner...

James Dobson, Marriage Under Fire, P68: “In twenty-seven years I have never said anything hateful about homosexuals on our broadcasts, and I do not condone violence or disrespect for anyone.”

So it's true when they say they love us, they just love to hate us to death.

Always pro-life?

From CitizenLink:

The pro-life community reacted with shock after George Tiller was shot to death Sunday morning...

"We…categorically condemn the act of vigilantism and violence that took his life," Dr. James Dobson said in a statement..."The person or persons responsible for his death should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law."
---
Umm...wouldn’t that be the death penalty?

Re: Abortion debate: Spontaneous Abortion

REP. ROSA DELAURO (D), CONNECTICUT: …But it is a combination -- as Tim Ryan pointed out -- of prevention, and if you don‘t want to deal with the issue of prevention or with contraception, then you may not be serious about wanting to reduce that need for abortions or unintended pregnancies.

~Hardball with Chris Matthews May 19, 2009

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This is a reference post in regard to the abortion debate, reprinted (with a few modifications) from the Teach The Facts / Vigilance blog, in response to Theresa Rickman this anonymous commenter:

thanks for the reminder about the suffering caused by the liberal agenda's support for abortion

also, the suffering experienced by innocent disadvantaged inner city kids who have no choice but to attend dangerous schools and mix with violent gangs greatly dwarfs any suffering experienced by the evil conspirators in U.S. custody who are guilty of planning the death of thousands of innocent people on 9/11 and have shown no remorse

Jesse Jackson once called abortion racist because it disproportionately kills minority children

both abortion and no-choice schools are attacks on disadvantaged children in America

would be nice to see TTF apply the kind of rage they feel over the treatment of murderous monsters to the conditions imposed on innocent disadvantaged children by liberals in America

will they ever repent?

And now for my diatribe in response:

Anonymous: “would be nice to see TTF apply the kind of rage they feel over the treatment of murderous monsters to the conditions imposed on innocent disadvantaged children by liberals in America”

You know what would be even nicer - social conservatives getting a grip on reality. A long term memory wouldn’t hurt either.

~~~
Anonymous: “thanks for the reminder about the suffering caused by the liberal agenda's support for abortion”

Some of the “concern” the pro-life crowd has for human life:

A search for spontaneous abortion brings up:

Spontaneous abortion is a very common experience for women. It is estimated that between 25-50% of conceptions spontaneously abort. Researchers do not have an exact figure due to the fact that when this occurs very early on, many women do not know that they were ever pregnant.

A search for Miscarriage statistics yields similar results:

Miscarriage Statistics - A Look at the Figures and Definitions Miscarriage statistics can be dramatic. Miscarriage reportedly occurs in 20 percent of all pregnancies. However, according to some sources, this may be an inaccurate number. Many women, before realizing a life has begun forming within them, may miscarry without knowing it-assuming their miscarriage is merely a heavier period. Therefore, the miscarriage rate may be closer to 40 or 50 percent.

That’s quite a few newly created eternal souls that end up in the garbage bin. Where’s the outrage for all of those poor souls? Why aren’t you soliciting congress to pour money into research that would prevent all miscarriages?

Further, 30,000 already born children die of starvation every day. That’s nearly 11 million preventable deaths a year, and about 400 million since Roe v Wade was decided in ‘73. (http://www.starvation.net/)

Starvation is a slow and PAINFUL death. One would think that would factor in as far as priorities go.

~~~
More on the “liberal agenda's support for abortion”:

Democrats for LIFE of America:

The 95-10 Initiative [95% reduction in 10 years] seeks to reduce the number of abortions in America…

…We cannot deny that abstinence is the only sure way to prevent pregnancy, but we also cannot turn our heads and pretend that our children are not engaging in risky behavior or the fact that contraception is not 100 percent effective. The Federal government has made a commitment to support prevention efforts and allocated a record $288.3 million in FY 2005 for family planning under title X. The program provides access to contraceptive supplies and information to all who want and need them. A priority is given to low-income persons.

Further reading: The 17 programs of the "95-10 Initiative”

~~~
Still more on the “liberal agenda's support for abortion”:

MSNBC’s Hardball with Chris Matthews, May 19 2009:

But we begin with President Obama at Notre Dame and the debate over abortion… …They‘re working together, however, on legislation to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and thereby reduce the number of abortions.

REP. TIM RYAN (D), OHIO: …most abortions are performed on women who live within 200 percent of the poverty level, so this is really about access to prevention. …at the same time, incentivize adoption and those social service programs, that if a woman does get pregnant, she has the wherewithal to bring the baby to term, know that the baby will have health care, make sure that if she‘s in college, that there are child care centers at the college campus, all of those things, nurses for newborns, those programs that would encourage the woman to bring the baby to term.

[I’m 40, I’ve been a news junkie since I was 15, and I can’t remember the last time I heard a social conservative or Republican make those suggestions.]

REP. ROSA DELAURO (D), CONNECTICUT: …But it is a combination -- as Tim Ryan pointed out -- of prevention, and if you don‘t want to deal with the issue of prevention or with contraception, then you may not be serious about wanting to reduce that need for abortions or unintended pregnancies.

That pretty much sums it up. “Just say no” appears to be the only “solution” that social conservatives have to offer, (and I’m not talking about self-determination, I’m talking about coerced indoctrination.) blissfully unaware that stifling and suppressing the sexual - or creative force of human nature, only ensures that it comes out as the destructive force of human nature.

As far as “just say no” goes, you may as well be trying to prevent relationships.
~~~
The same thoughtful considerations were discussed on Chris Matthews on March 6th of this year, except this time Ken Blackwell of the FRC was also on, and had nothing more to offer than pompous bluster and the “Just say no” “outlaw it” mantra.

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Anonymous: “Jesse Jackson once called abortion racist because it disproportionately kills minority children”

Where? When? Until you provide a source for that information, it’s nothing more than a baseless assertion, but I’ll humor you:

Disproportionate African-American POVERTY is racist. It’s a connection between poverty and racism, abortion falls under that category.
~~~
Anonymous: “also, the suffering experienced by innocent disadvantaged inner city kids who have no choice but to attend dangerous schools and mix with violent gangs greatly dwarfs any suffering experienced by the evil conspirators in U.S. custody who are guilty of planning the death of thousands of innocent people on 9/11 and have shown no remorse

would be nice to see TTF apply the kind of rage they feel over the treatment of murderous monsters to the conditions imposed on innocent disadvantaged children by liberals in America”

(Oh the pain, the pain of it all. Won’t somebody please think about the children!)

Where was your concern for “the children” these past eight years of “stick it to the poor and give it to the rich?

Funding cuts for Medicaid, food stamps, eligibility for food stamps, school lunch programs, student loan subsidies, etc. But extension of tax cuts on capital gains and dividend income, A OK. And that’s just from one Associated Press article via Fox News:

“Republicans said reining in such programs whose costs spiral upward each year automatically s (sic) the first step to restoring fiscal discipline.”

Yet Republican policies are responsible for adding 4 trillion to the national debt. Fiscal discipline my derriere.

Republicans for the rich, Democrats for the impoverished children, every step of the way, and I watched it all happen live on CSPAN, every day - I am a first hand eye-witness.

If you want to argue better ways of helping the poor, I have no objections. But cut the nonsense as to feigning concern for them.

The past eight years have been an orgy of corruption, greed, waste, fraud and abuse. Your willful ignorance is blinding. But you don’t miss a trick when it comes to your daily talking points, do you? Regurgitating all of it, verifying none of it.

(Did your "family" groups have to tell you to distract from the issues by characterizing liberal’s concern for the law as concern for monsters, or is that something you came up with on your own?)

All of that is just the tip of the iceberg. 600 billion (1 trillion estimated) on an unnecessary and illegal war with a country that had NOTHING to do with 9/11, resulting in millions of deaths, injuries, maimings, refugees and destroyed lives. Yet even when it comes to our own, Republicans cut veterans’ benefits - in the name of "fiscal discipline."

Social conservatives may be anti-abortion, but you’re not only not pro-life, you’re definitively pro-death.

~~~
Anonymous: “will they ever repent?”

Anyone who feels bad about not living up to the Golden Rule when it comes to the treatment of others, IS repentant. Hence the “bleeding heart” part of the “bleeding heart liberals” pejorative -- we supposedly care too much.

The “morality” and “values” of self-proclaimed socially conservative Christians have all the properties of human dung, except the only thing it fertilizes is your own egos.

When you die, you won’t be separate from your “enemies,” and you will feel their pain, and will have to live with that.

I apply that same understanding to my own life, and to be candid, I’m often lousy at practicing the Golden Rule. But when possible, I do atone - no matter how humiliating.

The “liberal agenda” is anti-unwanted pregnancy, not pro-abortion.